Talk:Catherine Halsey
Noble-6's Eulogy Someone has edited the article claiming that Halsey returns to Reach in 2589 to deliver 6's eulogy, and we have absolutely no evidence to support that. And that's also quite a jump considering there's no confirmation on whether she's made it out of onyx yet. (also considering that Halsey would be near 90 years old at that point I find it unlikely) Yes, Halsey voices the final monologue, but that's no indication that these words were spoken in the same place or time as the game's final images (if we're to assume it was actually spoken outside of the dramatic context). Furthermore, she speaks in very generic terms about the importance of NOBLE's sacrifice having catalyzed the events told in Halo and ultimately mankind's survival and rebuilding, but never speaks in specifics regarding the time frame or location of the epilogue. It's just as likely Bungie meant to use Halsey's voice for dramatic punctuation and not to imply she was physically there -- however there's no evidence to support this either! I feel the last paragraph should be removed all-together, seeing as it contradicts what we DO (and yet don't) know about the nature of Halsey's whereabouts, and that speculating whether a near-90-year-old Halsey returns to Reach on Bungie Day 2589 holds no relevance towards further understanding the Halo Universe. Watemon 00:19, September 22, 2010 (UTC) If we can't confirm whether Halsey is actually back on Reach 30 years after the fact, what is the significance of suggesting so: "well, she delivers a eulogy that only the game-playing audience hears, and we have no proof she's even physically present during the shot the eulogy was made, so it very-well may be a recording, but we don't know for sure." Though there is a sort of dramatic function, having Jen Taylor voice the closing monologue of the game, beyond that, what significance regarding Catherine Halsey's biography does it serve to speculate that we can't confirm whether or not that means she's still stuck on Onyx? Watemon 21:26, December 23, 2010 (UTC) Miranda's mother(confirmed)? removed the item about the Halsey/Daughter Keys link, because it is simply fanfiction with no basis. Jacob Keyes may have been attracted to Halsey in the beginning, but there is absolutely no evidence that Halsey is Miranda's mother. yet. :Agreed. No major speculation. --Dragonclaws 02:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC) So why, then, does the article say she gave birth to Miranda? I don't remember this in Halsey's journal, but whoever did the edit is citing it. I can't be bothered to page through it again on somebody else's speculation. Burden of proof ain't on me. Page number or direct quote to confirm this? We can't just keep saying "found it in the journal" if we're not going to provide something more concrete. CipherCero 05:00, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :CipherCero, check the dates on this section. This discussion above was written nearly FOUR years ago. More information came, namely Halsey's journal, and now it's pretty clear Halsey was indeed meant to be Miranda's mother all along. [[User:Tuckerscreator|''Tuckerscreator]](stalk) 05:55, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :I'm aware of the date on this discussion. "Pretty clear" still looks like inferred to me. Just read it again--in no time does Halsey ever state that Miranda actually is her daughter, though it's implied. Implication /= certainty. Otherwise we can infer things all we want from whatever we want. CipherCero 16:15, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::There's a difference between a strong implication and drawing conclusions from implications that aren't there. In this case, the implication is obvious. It's not just once, but referenced multiple times throughout the journal. It's clear they didn't want to state it outright, but make it so that everyone can figure it out. --Jugus (Talk | ) 16:33, October 4, 2010 (UTC) :::And not stating it outright makes sense, seeing as it's Halsey's personal journal; she didn't intend for anyone else to read it, so why would she say something like "my daughter Miranda", when she personally knew exactly who she was? While it was a thinly-based fan theory a few years ago, the journal, as Jugus said, heavily implies it, and a conclusion can easily be drawn. - [[User:Halo-343|'Halo-343']] [[User talk:Halo-343|('Talk')]] 17:18, October 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::Also aware that yes, this is Halsey's personal journal which of course would affect the language she uses. However an implication is still an implication, and an inference is still an inference. I'm not saying I don't agree that Miranda is, in fact, Dr. Halsey's child. I strongly believe it and the journal supports this. However, the entries are written in such a way that it could represent a variety of equally-possible scenarios. The wiki is simply supporting the most popular one. Asserting on the wiki article that Miranda is Dr. Halsey's daughter is a statement that would require a citation--you can't cite what wasn't actually said. Even the article on Dr. Halsey's journal only states that a biological maternal relationship between her and Miranda is "strongly implied." I don't see why that couldn't work as an alternative. Otherwise, like I said, we can "infer" just about anything we want. CipherCero 17:33, October 4, 2010 (UTC) Little thing noticed the DOB reference and loads of the others are screwed up, not going to mess with unfamilliar code, just thought you might want to know Upgrades As you can see, I've made a major extension in the Reach section. I'd like to suggest that the periods before and after Reach be given a similar expansion. There are many other things that I think could also be added to the page. -- Forgottenlord 15:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC) Cortana There should probably be a bit about the creation of Cortana. That's a major part of the Halsey character. --Dragonclaws(talk) 17:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC) :Problem is that we don't have enough sources to create such section. Could you mail to Nylund or Bungie for a wee tiny information regarding the subject? H-107 Subtle Tank 18:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC) Negative attitude She didnt belive in humanity.AH the Elites and 117 proved her wrong. Sith Venator You have to wonder how she'll take it when she finds out how the war was finally finished... by the apparent self-sacrifice of S-117 who took her advice about 'saving every life he could' to heart. As for her description, "The Fall of Reach" in the first few pages has Keyes describing Halsey as striking, and very pale with dark hair. Should we.... Should we include Halsey's UNSC Civilian consultant number? it is: 409871 , as said by Araqiel (Ackerson's AI) in First Strike, in Chapter Thirteen. EngineerCrazy 22:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC in mine it says 409861 Good call, just remember the source 19:55, April 9, 2010 (UTC) Whisking away Kelly Why specifically does Halsey sedate Kelly and drag her aboard Jiles' cruiser? When Halsey asks John to send Kelly to her right away, she adds a disclaimer about something "very important." Is she taken away because she needs to be treated for a few more weeks, or something deeper? Spartan-826 3/4/09 :It is revealed in Ghosts of Onyx, she took Kelly to check out something Ackerson was doing. XRoadToDawnX 02:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC) Oh, I must have skimmed by that part. I guess she felt she should bring a Spartan, just in case. I probably would have too =) Thanks. User talk:Spartan-826 7:00, 6 March 2009 I think Halsey knew all too well about the spartans IIIs and Mendez being on Onyx from the notes she got from Ariquel (ackersons AI). What she wouldnt of know were figures. But out of all the spartans why choose kelly? In my opinion due to the fact she thought humanity was gonna be destroyed she chose another female for repopulation. Linda would of been out of the question due to her injurys I would assume. Mastur Cheef 1337 11:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC) First battle of Harvest I edited a section dedicated to Dr.Halseys presence at Harvest since its taken directly from the books Halo:Contact Harvest and Halo: Fall of reach. Positioned a bit oddly since the time line for the page is a bit off, any obligations to reorganising the page? Mastur Cheef 1337 11:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC) Catherine Elizabeth Halsey Is it possible that Catherine Elizabeth Halsey is a descendant of Fleet Admiral William Frederick Halsey, Jr., USN, (October 30, 1882 – August 16, 1959)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Halsey,_Jr. :A possibility? Yes, but probably not what the authors were going for. More likely her name is just a reference to the Admiral.-- [[User:Rusty-112|'Rusty']][[User:Rusty-112|'-']][[User:Rusty-112|'112']] 13:23, September 1, 2009 (UTC) Dr Halsey in Halo Legends I have just been looking over several Legends videos, and I came across one very brief image of what looks like Halsey overlooking the Spartan augmentations. See for yourself, pause at ''exactly 5:41 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lNcbfMfCGs#movie_player - [[User:Halo-343|'Halo-343']] [[User talk:Halo-343|(Talk)]] 18:31, November 9, 2009 (UTC) Yeah, I see it. We can't be sure, but I'd guess that's her. Nice job seeing that.-- [[User:Rusty-112|'Rusty']][[User:Rusty-112|'''-']][[User:Rusty-112|'112']] 18:53, November 9, 2009 (UTC) Good find, though it may not be her. --Sgt.T.N.Biscuits 16:26, November 11, 2009 (UTC) ::Could you plz find another vid? that one's down...--0v3rl0rd 20:48, April 11, 2010 (UTC) Well a new image of Dr. Halsey is up on the Wiki and I must say. GODAMN! She looks pretty friggin good for a 50+ year old. :She might not be 50 at that point yet; we don't know when the Package takes place. Though that's obviously not how she's supposed to look, they even got the hair color wrong. One has to wonder, why would they ignore all descriptions of her and make her a generic anime chick instead. For her first appearance, it's disappointing to say at least.--Jugus (Talk | ) 14:13, December 15, 2009 (UTC) ::Maybe this was during her wild/rebellious years. 15:40, December 18, 2009 (UTC) She did go around kidnapping children for ONI, who knows what else she did while under cover. Obviously she was doing something important enough for the Covenant to find her and track her down. So maybe its a disguise. We know people live much longer too, so she could remain youthful for a greater period of time. ProphetofTruth 16:03, December 18, 2009 (UTC) She could have dyed her hair blond, a lot of women do that. And also, time in cryo sleep drastically affects one's age. For instance, Preston Cole is 82 Earth years old, but because of time spent in cryo-sleep, he is about 60 years old. Says so in Evolutions. - [[User:Halo-343|'Halo-343']] [[User talk:Halo-343|('Talk')]] 08:45, December 30, 2009 (UTC) I agree with Halo-343. She is probably only sixty ''including time spent in cryo-sleep. As for a change in hair color, she could have dyed it. Still, if she appears blonde in other episodes of the anime, I would guess that blonde is her actual hair color, and that black is really her dyed hair color. I don't know how to explain the absence of wrinkles though. Maybe she didn't have them yet. - User:Webspidrman 17 January 2010 (UTC) ::Maybe cosmetic operations. :::Please sign your posts. And it would be completely out of Halsey's character to do something like that. - [[User:Halo-343|'Halo-343']] [[User talk:Halo-343|(Talk)]] 13:55, January 5, 2010 (UTC) Am I the only one who wants to put a pistol to my head after witnessing the halsey from "the package"? --þ†öWè®¥ ^ (UNSC Fleetcom)(UNSC History)( ) 16:49, April 4, 2010 (UTC) ::Apparently, yeah... she looks pretty awesome, to me :P better than the legends' Cortana, at least! 19:53, April 9, 2010 (UTC) I think her hair's color should be normally dark: in Halo: the fall of reach is often stated about that, but also it is said that she had some hairs white because of age. If you dye hair, they can't be white because of your age: they are the colour you choose. I think it's absurd to thiunk that nylund tought about hair color returning to original after being dyed. Hope i have esxplained well :)--Y92 15:40, June 22, 2010 (UTC) Bungie.net NOW The new Vidoc just uploaded to Bungie actually reveals Halsey in game for the first time ever. voiced by Jen Taylor too! anyone want to take the liberty to snatch a screenie? 10:49, August 17, 2010 (UTC) What Mirrors What If Legends came before Reach, that means the latter mirrors the former. That's how it works. I'm not sure about the punishment for edit warring here, so I'm just playing it safe with a topic.Fairfieldfencer FFF 19:54, August 17, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, but some canon places higher authority over others. Halsey in ViDoc is of direct Bungie creation, therefore it is of higher authority.[[User:Tuckerscreator|''Tuckerscreator]]'' 19:58, August 17, 2010 (UTC)'' :Yes, but as you can see, it doesn't need to be worded like that. To my understanding, "mirroring" implies there is a connection between the two or that Reach somehow follows Legends - which is not the case. They are two projects developed independently from each other, so neither "mirrors" one another. --Jugus (Talk | ) 20:01, August 17, 2010 (UTC) But, the ViDoc is actually non-canon! Because Halsey never even HEARD of the SPARTAN-III Program until after the main battle of Reach.Thank you taking time to listen to my post! 20:20, August 17, 2010 (UTC)!!! ::While I sincerely doubt that Halsey's monologue about Noble Team is canon, as she had never even heard of the SPARTAN-IIIs at that point, - the same goes for Desperate Measures: Why would they talk to themselves about SPARTANs/their squadmates when they're on besieged planets, and when could the ViDocs possibly take place? - her image is definitive. The point isn't that the image was made by Bungie. The point is that the image is from a game. Regardless of whether her evaluation of Noble Team actually took place, it's an in-game model that perfectly resembles her description from the novels. Games trump all else, especially when it comes to visuals. -"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson 20:34, August 17, 2010 (UTC) :::When Halsey's first shown on the ViDoc, she can be seen shutting down the video feed of Noble Team's Falcons lifting off - no doubt a modified/extended version of the cinematic seen in the VGA trailer. This would place Halsey's evaluation at the very beginning of the campaign, with the ViDoc's scenes of Noble Team fighting in the battle of Reach obviously not being a canon part and there just for the sake of presentation. What's interesting is that if Six meeting Noble Team is the very first cinematic in the game (which it seems to be), they still don't know about the Covenant on Reach. Yet Halsey seems to be fully aware of their presence. If the evaluation indeed takes place when Noble's mission begins, she must know more than, well, everyone else. That is, if the evaluation is canon to begin with - we'll just have to wait and see. But yeah, regardless of whether this scene appears in the game or not, her image is definitive. Certainly better than anything from Legends - in fact, it's amazingly accurate. Perfect even. --Jugus (Talk | ) 21:29, August 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::Err... The image isn't what the post was made about. It was a sentence change saying that since Halo Legends was the first to have Cortana and Halsey voiced by the same person, Halo Reach mirrors Legends, intentionally or not.Fairfieldfencer FFF 21:45, August 17, 2010 (UTC) :::::I gathered from First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx that she had at least a rudimentary idea that there were other Spartans - if Noble Team wasn't a surprise, then KING UNDER THE MOUNTAIN was just confirmation, coordinates, and enough information for her to put the last pieces of the puzzle together herself. She seems fairly well-read on the S-III existence when she meets Kurt. :::::Oh, and not to toot my own horn or anything, but I FLIPPING KNEW IT!!! XD -- Specops306 Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek 08:44, August 18, 2010 (UTC) ::::::It's a possibility that she actually thinks they're Class-II Spartan-IIs: they may even be registered as such, especially considering how the company letters have been dropped from their Spartan tags. True, Class-II's existence is still ambiguous, but there's no evidence against it either. --Jugus (Talk | ) 08:55, August 18, 2010 (UTC) Perhaps one should reconsider about the validity of the ViDoc. Has one never assessed that the ViDoc is simply a promotional item, another example being H3: ODST's Desperate Measures ViDoc? Perhaps the scene where Halsey assessed the hologram did happen but not with Noble Team files displayed as seen in the ViDoc? The whole narration is similar like the ones used in Desperate Measures; it never happened in the actual game but it happened only in the ViDoc. In Desperate Measures, we see Buck turning to the audiences and saying his lines but it never happened in the actual game. This might as well be true to the case of Halsey's shutting off the hologram and asking a question towards an unseen character... This leads to only one conclusion: Bungie might as well modified the whole scene to make it a legitimate scene. We've seen this before in Desperate Measures and no doubt in my mind Bungie expected these kind of responses. I don't understand why the majority fails to grasp this ViDoc...- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 18:47, August 19, 2010 (UTC) :Possible. It's extremely likely that the scene in the ViDoc won't be in the game (we've seen the first cinematic, and in the ViDoc, Halsey's seen shutting the video feed off just as the Falcons take off in that particular cutscene; doesn't seem to happen in the game) There is, however, a possibility that she'll appear in the game, considering she's talking about an item she wants one member of Noble Team to carry (she talks about "hope", which is clearly implied to be a tangible object, perhaps an AI). If Bungie wanted this to be an introductory video only, I doubt they would've included all that dialogue about "hope" and the ending where Halsey lets the AI (Auntie Dot?) choose the Spartan who'll carry it. But we'll just have to wait and see. --Jugus (Talk | ) 18:57, August 19, 2010 (UTC) LISTEN! Catharine Halsey didn't know for a fact about the SPARTAN-III Program until they were on Onyx! Which means that she couldn't ask Noble Team to do anything because beside for a select few people who knew, the SPARTAN-III Program didn't exist. This is non-cannon just like the new Patrol ViDoc! Unless those military guys were actually one of the SPARTAN-III drill instructors, they wouldn't know.Thank you taking time to listen to my post! 19:33, August 19, 2010 (UTC)!!!!! :But you're not saying anything :/ Halsey had her suspicions on Reach. A file called "S-III"; a list of personal S-II information (which would be important were someone to copy the S-II program) and the transfer of a key Spartan-II Program asset (Mendez, who trained them in military strategy and gave philosophical advice such as that you can't save everyone) to an uncharted area of space would make people suspicious. Especially "S-III". I'm sure the SPARTAN-III article pre-dates Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, here. -- Forerunner 19:46, August 19, 2010 (UTC) :To Vegerot: calm down. We know that. But note that Noble Team is obviously a separate case from the rest of the Spartan-IIIs. For the first thing, they were given unusually high ranks because they tend to "operate much more closely with non-augmented personnel than Blue, Red, et al ever did", as stated by Bungie. Now, if they were top-secret like the rest of the Spartan-IIIs, how would this be possible? It's possible, likely even, that their connection to the Spartan-III program has been covered up; this is also evident by the absence of their company tags. I'm not going to debate whether the ViDoc is canon or not, but it's obvious that NOBLE's existence isn't a secret to anyone. --Jugus (Talk | ) 19:47, August 19, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm leaning to the "Everyone thinks they're SPARTAN-IIs" theory. And for all we know, Halsey doesn't meet them at all, anyway.-- Forerunner 19:56, August 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Also to Vegerot: there is nothing at all to suggest that Patrol isn't canon. We don't know how closely Noble Team worked with local Army forces prior to the Fall of Reach. EDIT: We know Noble Team worked with non-augmented personnel quite extensively. Besides, regular soldiers have no idea that there's more than one type of SPARTAN. To them, there's no distinction between SPARTAN-IIs, whom everyone recognizes simply with the catchall "SPARTAN" moniker, and Noble Team: they're all supersoldiers with highly advanced powered armor. To the layman, a SPARTAN is a SPARTAN. There's no risk to the secrecy of the S-III program simply because Noble Team's existence is semi-common knowledge. --"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson 19:58, August 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::Good point, but note that if there's a team of Spartans other than the commonly known twos running around and interacting with normal military personnel regularly, the brass will know about it sooner or later. And so will people like Halsey. --Jugus (Talk | ) 07:13, August 20, 2010 (UTC) :::: ::Halsey was the mother of all S-IIs, hasn't anybody considered that? She would have recognised the difference between an S-II and something else. Sad to say, I have seen the spoilarz on the web, and I've put together the story of the cutscenes and this ViDoc. No, I'm not revealing anything or tempting you to see the spoilers (they've been banned already anyway). But I want to say that this little thread is taking a very strange direction. ::But first, this has to be clarified. Whatever Halsey was thinking, Dr Halsey definitely knew that they were not Spartan IIs. To further clarify this, Jorge is an S-II. In the ViDoc, she clearly says "it's good to see him home". This seperated Jorge from the rest. Jorge was her creation. Surely she knew the others were not Spartan IIs. :: ::Now's the part where it may become a bit suggestive. I have read Ghosts of Onyx and seen the spoilers. I'm not saying that Halsey is involved in Campaign, but I still do not know whether or how Dr Halsey was aware of the S-III's identities. The spoilers did not have anything to say. Nobody was questioned "Who are you?" or "Who made you?" The S-IIIs just carried out their orders without that topic being brought up. They were also addressed like typical officers. ::Rollback the previous paragraph if it revealed too much. SolidLemonsoup(ahaha) 12:24, September 9, 2010 (UTC) Dr halsey and noble team Colonel Holland says in the first mission noble actual that ONI thinks sending the Spartans are un-resourceful, doesn`t that kinda hint that since ONI knows Dr Halsey might know : :Admiralmorris, please sign off next time. You made this edit on 4th September, did you? You also have a tendency of typing "doesn't" like "doesn`t". Use the apostrophe that is two buttons to the right of 'l' on your keyboard. :Also, I don't think many people get what you mean by saying "that hints that since ONI knows Dr Halsey might know". By right, Dr Halsey should have had no idea of the existence of the S-III program. However, I have seen a few spoilers of Halo: Reach... *shhh!!!* :SolidLemonsoup(ahaha) 11:50, September 9, 2010 (UTC) The fact that ONI knows about Noble Team does not nessesarily mean that Halsey knows, the SPARTAN-III program was made by ONI, and in the books she apparently doesn't know about the whole program until near the ending of the Fall of Reach, dispite being part of ONI. However, also for that reason that ONI knows, Halsey might know about the SPARTAN-IIIs, or at least knows that someone tried to replicate a cheaper version of her SPARTANs, but didn't know the full extent. --Juubi no Ryuu 02:00, September 12, 2010 (UTC) :Hey guys, I was wondering if I can edit this article with the new information from Halo Reach. It will include spoilers. The new info will be put here in the Battle of Reach section.Xtermin8R645 23:22, September 14, 2010 (UTC) :Now that Halsey has an image to her name (as per Reach), did anyone expect her to be on the chubby side? It certainly surprised me. Since Cortana is based on her, I expected a leaner figure, that's Bungie for you, alway keeps you guessing.--Plasmic Physics 00:02, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Halsey was chubby? I didn't see that, maybe it was her sweater, maybe her wrinkles, or maybe I was just potentially blinded by the fact of that my head was screaming: "OMIGOSH, IT'S HALSLEYHALSEYHALSEY!!1!11!" [[User:Tuckerscreator|Tuckerscreator]](stalk) 02:11, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :Is the final objective supposed to be imcompletable, or is there any point in trying, like an alternate ending?--Plasmic Physics 05:33, September 15, 2010 (UTC) From the looks of it, yes, it's unbeatable. I noticed that at one point the cracks appear in your visor while they're firing at you once appeared '''WHILE your shields were still up, and in any case those Zealots appear to do more damage than usual. Or maybe that's just the difficulty. And yes, they can be killed. Regardless, though, I think we might be going a little off topic here...[[User:Tuckerscreator|''Tuckerscreator]](stalk) 14:38, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Just because she knows they exist, that doesn't mean she knows who they are or ''what they are. Just because she may know about Noble Team in Reach doesn't mean she knows about the whole SPARTAN-III Program - perhaps her motivation for heading to Onyx? -- Specops306 Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek 23:15, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :Have you read Halsey's journal?--Plasmic Physics 08:04, September 16, 2010 (UTC) ^What did her journal say about her thought/opinion on Noble Team? (if any) -SonicSP 18:11, December 9, 2010 (UTC) ^^In her journal, Halsey states that after meeting Noble Team and observing their behavior,it is apparent that they (Jorge excluded for obvious reasons) are inferior to the Spartan II's. Dominance Rain 10:49, January 26, 2011 (UTC) Ma'am or Mom Is it possible the some SPARTAN-II's reffered to Dr. Halsey as "Mom" instead of ma'am beacause in Halo: Reach when Jorge-052 talks to her I could swear he says mom instead of ma'am. Which would make sence because they did see her as a mother figure instead of just an officer Chris-the-killer 18:43, September 16, 2010 (UTC) :Jorge is essentially European, so he would call her mum. Not mom. It's moot, anyway, as the game's subtitles reveal he says ma'am, similar to how an Englishman would with emphasis on the "a'am."Fairfieldfencer FFF 19:27, September 16, 2010 (UTC) Homeworld Was reading Glasslands, her homeworld is Endymion. Halsey, Reach, and Spartan IIIs so I'm confused by the way the article is written, also considering this may be a plot hole in the series (but noted one of the only ones I've ever seen). Halsey knew about Noble Team BEFORE she hacked into Ackersons files, and we know that she remembers all the Spartan-II's that survived the training. So who does she think Noble Team is? maybe it's just implied that she hid her surprise about these "unknown spartans" really well, when actually she had no idea where Noble Team came from UNTIL she hacked ackersons files? or am I missing something? Or is it really just a plot hole between the games and the books? -BardicFire (talk) 00:16, March 30, 2014 (UTC) * After reading through her Journal more thoroughly I think I answered my own question though the article might want to be reworded to explain it better BardicFire (talk) 07:32, April 10, 2014 (UTC)